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RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

rocki — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 07:53:24 GMT

B-Ball Fan (11/13/2008)

Rocki: My 2 cents is that I too feel that all the current and former players should be allowed to vote if they choose to and the good old American way of majority rules be allowed. My only question is would the longer tenured former players accept the vote if it came out to change the name? Just asking, not trying to stir the pot so to say.

Most likely, not (JMHO). However, I really think that the current players (and ones who played when "Westerwinds" was not highly publicized) need to read the articles about how the "Westerwinds" came about, and have some type of dialogue with the former players who were "Westerwinds" when the name meant something - people like Dot Richardson who excelled at softball, and went on to not only be a doctor, but to represent the US at the Olympics. These women were there when the Westerwinds were born, they know how much respect the name commanded. There is absolutely no reason that it can't command the same respect in the future - but it will take educating those who don't know what a proud name it was...before it got sloughed off, not due to women's lack of talent, but an apparent shortage of funds which, of course, hits women's programs first.

I can tell you that as a businessperson in Macomb, there was a lot of support for the women's teams (and I mean donations marked specifically for women's teams, since the men seem to receive plenty of funding no matter what). As donors, the businesses got posters, framed pictures, etc. ALL bearing the Westerwinds "wave" logo. Oddly, I don't see that anymore.

It's just a quirk of mine, but I tend to dislike the moniker "Lady (whatever the team name is)", whether it's "Lady Rockets", "Lady Ducks". "Lady Knights".....it just seems like they're just a step under the "Rockets, Ducks, Knights, whatever". Kinda like a peewee league. I have no problem with them having their own team name.

I don't know.....I guess even when it comes to men's teams, the name "Leatherneck" generally brings on thoughts of football. Not BB, not baseball, not track, not golf, not soccer....you hear "Leatherneck" you think football (JMHO).

The guys are stuck with that.....let the women have their heritage and identitiy.

BTW, why after 30 years, does the administration want to do away with the Westerwinds, anyway? They never appeared to find the women deserving enough to use the name Leathernecks in the past. If they didn't want them then, why, after letting them build a legacy, do they want them to put it in the dumper now??????????

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

B-Ball Fan — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 08:41:49 GMT

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

rocki — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 07:02:51 GMT

My 2 cents (for what it's worth) is to LEAVE THE WESTERWINDS ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was around when the contest was held to find a name for the women's teams. For whatever reason (regardless of the fact that is now being stated about women being in the Marines, etc. - as they were at that time, as well) there was never any usage at all about "Lady Leathernecks", "Lady 'Necks", or "Leatherneckettes". Apparently it seemed that using the "Western women's team" was sufficient to sports writers/casters. Yeah, that's terrific recognition for the school. Also, these young women were competing just as hard and put as much dedication into their sport as any young man involved in sports on campus. Yet.....they had no identitiy. Nobody cared enough to assign them a team name, or allow them to use the "Leatherneck" term in regards to their programs.

So, someone figured these women deserve better. They deserve to have a team name that can they can be identified by. (Please note.....there doesn't appear to have been a name with "Leatherneck" in it either submitted or, if submitted, seriously considered for useage).

So now, we want to knock out 30 years of accomplishments due to the whim of the AD? Stupid. Especially when you consider that the ONLY reason the name "Westerwinds" came about was because they weren't allowed to use the "Leatherneck" name.

These women - current and alumni - deserve to have the final say in this, IMHO. They are the ones being affected, not us. Severing the name now effectively negates the accomplishments of the women who competed as Westerwinds - almost makes them feel like an afterthought.

I also remember back in the day there was a TON of Westerwinds merchandise - mugs, shirts, cups, headbands, stickers......and all of a sudden it disappeared. Of course, if one has to cut the athletic budget, you always start with the women, right? I mean, they don't play football....and around here it seems that's the only sport that really counts.

JMHO.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

ladyneck02 — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:46:35 GMT

rumor mill is that Dr. Goldfarb's final decision will be announced coming soon, sometime around thanksgiving

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:19:47 GMT

B-Ball Fan-

I can understand your confusion. As I stated in an earlier post, even current women athletes didn't realize there still was discrimination. They also saw the upgrades in facilities, media guides, etc. and assumed things were equal.

To better understand the relevant areas (as far as the OCR is concerned), go back to my post with the links to the EADA and Title IX. The latter really breaks down Title IX for the layperson to understand.

When you look at the 3 main components of Title IX, the EADA report, and the information about how WIU cut 4 sports (badminton, gymnastics, field hockey, golf-the first 3 having varsity and jr. varsity teams), reinstated one (golf) and added another (soccer), you can see how WIU seems to be violating the first 2 components. It's harder to see from those about the 3rd, which is why the OCR is investigating that area.

The publicity aspect is a subarea. That is a hard area to gauge in terms of discrimination because of the many forms publicity takes. The Westerwinds proposal is a part of this, but I don't know how much of it. It's a unique situation because of the separate name for the women.

It's enough to make anyone's head spin. There's so many areas in athletics and Title IX that it's difficult for the average person (public or athlete) to know every aspect of Title IX. Therefore, it's hard to realize there's discrimination or understand what is considered discrimination under Title IX.

Until I looked at the EADA and Title IX components, I had only a cursory understanding of the law, what it covered, and what constituted discrimination.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

B-Ball Fan — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:49:44 GMT

windsswim: As stated earlier, I have read every post on this subject and am trying not to offend anyone or stir things up. I've reread and I am a little confused. I don't doubt that there were Title IX issues in the past and even 10 years ago. My question is what is the current issues that need addressed ? Are there current issues ? What are they ? I must be very unobservant or naive, but I don't see them at events, I see equal advertising for events, I seen better locker rooms for Ladies before men's were fixed up. What am I missing ?

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:00:41 GMT

It was brought about by a former athlete.

But if she seems "disgruntled", it may be because the university she went to and represented is still discriminating against women athletes 36 years after Title IX was supposed to eliminate gender discrimination.

If you knew there was discrimination at your job, school, etc., were still waiting years for it to be eliminated, and you knew you could do something about it, wouldn't you do something to move the process along and make things right? If not for yourself, but for others who came after you, so they wouldn't be discriminated against?

That's why people decide to fight injustices such as discrimination-so that others don't have to live, work, go to school, etc. under the same unequal conditions. If nobody did anything to end such things, we'd still have Jim Crow laws, quotas for women in medical and law schools, and other discrimination.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

WIU712 — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:48:54 GMT

I have read all the posts on this topic.

I am getting the impression that the current dissension is being brought about by a disgruntled former athlete and maybe even a disgruntled former coach.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

western-101 — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:49:19 GMT

I am with 'Neckfan71, and I am going to follow his lead I am done posting on this thread.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:31:12 GMT

B-ball fan and Neckfansince71-

Just to clarify, the possible violations aren't from a decade ago. They have been around for years. In fact, as early as 1978, 6 years after Title IX was passed, the women's Athletic Dept. filed a suit about discrimination.

To be fair, WIU has made some improvements over the years. They are doing a better job at compliance than even a decade ago.

However, there are still some areas where it seems they have been reluctant to address, or extremely slow in doing so because the OCR wouldn't have found a need to investigate. From what I understand, this is what the investigation is mainly about.

As to why nobody's done anything (such as file a complaint) before this-it could very well be that nobody really knew WIU was still in non-compliance. The women athletes and public saw some improvements in the dept. and thought things were fine. If you only looked that far, it did look like WIU was complying.

But the areas where it seems they don't comply aren't readily visible unless you do the research into the EADA and Title IX. That's what is being addressed now.

Again, the person filing the complaint first started looking at Title IX to see if that was a way to legally fight the Westerwinds proposal. What she found was other areas where WIU seemed to still be in violation of the Title IX components. That was even more important than the name change. The name change is secondary and a small part of the complaint, but I think it's now part of the investigation under the area of publicity.

Good question as to why the NCAA certified WIU. It could be that with so many schools, the NCAA only looks superficially at each school's report. If they see there's a basic level of compliance (number of teams, same media guides, some facility improvements, etc.), they may just certify the school. They may just trust the school when they say they're meeting requirements. Not knowing the NCAA guidelines for school certification, I'm only speculating.

Many schools are in non-compliance. The OCR knows this, but doesn't have the resources to investigate every one. Unfortunately, they tend to wait until someone files a complaint before they act. Not a perfect system, but at least one in place to deal with issues involving not only Title IX, but the other Title laws.

I don't know if OCR has the power to investigate the NCAA as a governing body.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

Neckfansince71 — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 18:37:47 GMT

Windswim, who said that the OCR has found anything wrong????? Just cause they are investigating does not necessarily mean there is a problem!!!!

This publicity thing is a big farce! The athletic department does a great job advertising women's athletics! If this is about discrimmination, then it would seem to me that the question is "are women's sports being advertised like the men?" Seems like they have all of the sports covered as far as the SID's office goes and again the press guides are all pretty nice.

If Western was not in compliance, why did the NCAA certify the school just a couple of years ago? Maybe the OCR should investigate the NCAA first!

I have been a gentlemen in regards to this and will continue to be, but I am done talking about this. And unfortunately this has soured me towards the name "Westerwinds" in general. Forget about mediation! Lets do what is right for the university in the year 2008, not 1990!

Neckfan out!!!!!!

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

B-Ball Fan — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:35:10 GMT

I've set back and read every post on this subject and have over heard many a discussion about this subject the past year at sporting events. I respect everyone's opinion as stated on here or by folks in passing. My thoughts are simply this. United we stand and divided we fail. Let's all get on board together and support "1 UNITED WIU" !! From what i have gathered from being a student at WIU from 73 - 78. A long time supporter of WIU athletics both men and women, having a current WIU student and another 1 next year, I am disturbed if the Title IX issues happened a decade ago and now are being drudged up because of a name change. that sound a little self serving and ancient history if you ask me ( I know iou aren't ) I'm not saying this to anger anyone or stir the pot, but please let's not take down an athletic department over past issues. Just 1 man's opinion.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:32:00 GMT

The person filing the complaint first did it to find a way to save Westerwinds. What followed after doing research into Title IX and WIU was another issue larger than who should be called what.

This whole case boils down to one thing-discrimination.

That's what Title IX and other Title laws have in common-to end discrimination. It doesn't matter what form it takes-gender, race, religion, disability, etc.

The OCR has found enough evidence of possible discrimination by WIU against women athletes to conduct an investigation.

What if this was about race discrimination? If what has happened in the past regarding racial discrimination is any indication, there would be little resistance by people in wanting WIU to end that type of discrimination.

But this is gender discrimination. And contrary to what you might say, sexism is still acceptable in American society when other forms of discrimination (like race) are not.

If someone posted here using derogatory racial remarks, there would be an outcry.

But there have been jokes made about the women and Westerwinds with no opposing comments other than mine. And when I have commented, I've been told I'm trying to be a "victim".

Racism wouldn't be tolerated, yet sexism is.

Make no mistake about this-the investigation is about ending discrimination. Period. No ands, ifs, or buts. No "it's only a name", "it's only women", "what's the fuss about", etc. There are possible violations of a federal law. If WIU is found to be violating that law, there will be changes.

As for the Westerwinds name proposal-I was told today Goldfarb has been busy lobbying the governor regarding proposed budget cuts in higher ed. Until that's resolved, along with the mediation over the Westerwinds proposal that has been brought up, there will be no decision made on the name.

As for the investigation itself-it's on hold until this mediation is completed (maybe by summer's end). If the mediation is successful and both parties can agree to something about Westerwinds, the OCR will be on campus in the fall to investigate the possible Title IX component violations. If the mediation is unsuccessful (meaning the two parties can't agree on a fair course of action), the OCR will also include the sub-area of publicity to the investigation.

From what I've been told, it's "hopeful" there will be a resolution to the Westerwinds proposal that will be acceptable to both parties.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

Leatherface — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:01:07 GMT

I'm believe my self-imposed five day ban is over.

Windsswim- you have passionately and eloquently stated your case. I also feel musaw,Ladyneck02,101,WIU712,BRGJOE, and Necksfansince71 have also stated their cases in a complete manner. An issue that could turn ugly in discussion, has remained cordial- and, that's good.

I personally agree with musaw etc. There's no need to rehash their thoughts. It is a university name.

If I were President of WESTERN, on the Board, or in any position to make a reccomendation, I would ask the following: (because, this discussion could drag on ad infinitim)

1) Organize a task force to review Title 9 at WESTERN, womens sports in general (promotion, resources etc). Those on this committee should have former-or current ties to athletics-men and women. Shown to be level headed. They should be fact finding only, with possible suggestions on improving dialogue between the athletic administration and men's and women's sports. A general review of Title 9 and current acceptance at WESTERN.

2) Starting immediately, I would reccomend all athletic teams at WESTERN be called Leathernecks. Period.

This could drag on for ever. Everyone should not be held captive over something like this. If there's Title 9 problems- deal with that issue. Don't create problems for everyone, while trying to make a point, all you do is hold others hostage. A rather selfish and arrogant approach. IMHO ( please note: I'm not calling windsswim arrogant or selfish, I'm referring to the issue as it stands with regard to WESTERN athletics)

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

ladyneck02 — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 15:28:28 GMT

It is difficult to argue on an issue when one side is taking a professional viewpoint and the other a personal one. Emotions are going to run high and "details" will get twisted around to best defend the position. This entire battle, which will continue until Dr. Goldfarb is able to make a final decision, has been a challenge bc of the clash of personal and professional viewpoints. The westerwind supporters are more vocal and are fighting their case with fierce passion, that is understood; however, there are many more female leatherneck supporters than you are aware of...they are just quieter. When I played at western, we didnt refer to the mascot bc it was too confusing, so we were simply Western Illinois. We got made fun of on the road bc of the Westerwind name and pride is tough to have when you are constantly getting ridiculed for a name.

I am not surprised that a westerwind supporter filed a title ix violation for something that occurred over a decade ago. I am curious to know who is currently working in the athletic dept from that time period. That is a low blow that could have negative effects on the current student-athletes and employees who had nothing to do with the allegations. I was an athlete at western for 4 years and not once was there discrimination against the female athletes or programs. I actually saw more being done to upgrade the women's facilities than the mens (women's basketball locker room, volleyball locker room, softball locker room).

I am sure that I am going to receive a lot of heated replies for my thoughts, but I am tired of the whole the thing. I am a female and I respect the history of the westerwind name, the admin is not trying to erase the history, they are trying to unite the department...I want to be a leatherneck

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 12:23:34 GMT

western-101

No, I'm not the one who came up with the name.

As for the "girls"-No, I'm not trying to be a victim. It's a matter of perception. By the time a person's in college, they are considered adults. It's time to call them what they are-men and women, not men and girls. The former treats them equally, the latter treats women as inferior.

I don't call men in college "boys" unless they act immature. I don't think you'd like to be refered to as a "boy" all the time when you're a grown adult.

Whether or not it was your intention, when you make fun of the 'Winds name, you imply the women are inferior.

Women athletes who want to keep the Westerwinds name DON'T want the men to give up their name. NOT AT ALL!

When I attended WIU, I thought the whole history of the Leathernecks name was great. I thought it was a special honor for the men to be the only ones in the country with permission to use the name. I even thought the mascot (a live bulldog at the time) had a cool tradition-when it died, WIU got a puppy from the official Marine Corp mascot litter.

That's why when the Admin. gave the women permission to have their own name and identity, it was a way for them to say "the men have a unique and special honor, now it's your turn". WIU was one of the few, and now might be the only school in the country to have separate names for the men and women.

Each is unique and special, each is an honor. Both should be allowed to keep them.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

western-101 — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 00:07:00 GMT

OK I'm going to cut right to it.

Windsswim, are you the Gal that came up with the Weterwinds name?

Oh and reference to calling the girls girls, who cares? women, ladies whatever. Would you be offended if a guy in the stands at a Softball game proclaimed "Wow these Westerwind girls can play!"

I am not offended if our guys lose and someone were to say, "that's OK our boys will get 'em next time".

I think you are deciding to be a victim.

Yeah, I had a little fun at the Westerwinds name expense. I suppose the reason for that is I think the Westerwinds name is really lame. Thats not to say I think that the women athletes are subpar.

When I was in high school the name of our team was the Comets. A comet is a chunk of ice and rock that hurls really fast through space. You know what our ladies were comets too.

Well the name Comet is no longer, I have fond memories of highschool and was in many sports. I couldn't care less that the name was changed (BTW it is the Titans now) cause it was a stupid freakin name. That dosen't mean my memories or accomplishments in high school are diminished.

When I said put it to a vote with the women athletes I was serious. I personaly don't care for the Westerwinds name, but I am just one person.

Maybe it's less about the Westerwinds name and more about you want the men to give up their name too?

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

thebluehatman — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:27:53 GMT

This is the thread that never ends. Yes it goes on and on my friends.

Come on sing with me Leatherneck fans.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:26:44 GMT

The admin. and athletic dept. are both partially responsible for the situation the school is in when it comes to compliance.

As for what this is all about-Title IX violations, which include equity and publicity. That include the Westerwinds name as a separate issue.

As I said before, this isn't a black and white issue. It's not easy to fully understand. There's a lot of different areas involved.

Whether or not it will be easy to resolve is dependant upon the OCR investigation results. In any case, there probably will be some changes made when it comes to the Athletic Dept. and also the Westerwinds proposal.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

WIU712 — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:12:11 GMT

I bet that none of us were around back in 1927 when the WESTERN team name was changed from "Fighting Teachers" to "Fighting Leathernecks".

Do you think that there was this much angst going on back then ?????

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

Neckfansince71 — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:00:59 GMT

I keep getting confused about what this is all about! Gender equity, Title IX, publicity, name change, or maybe bad feelings about how women's athletics was handled in the past???

I took a look at the compliance area of the WIU athletics site. Obviously participation is being calculated differently. A 36% participation ration for women who have 40% of the scholarships. No matter what, the number of scholarships available is tipped because of football. But Western has selected 3 different sports as core, meaning fully funded for women and one sport to be fully funded for scholarships for the men. The Summit requires just men's and women's basketball to be core, in order to allow them to compete not only at a conference level but also a national level. Women's volleyball and softball are also fully funded. This passed muster with the NCAA the last time they came to Macomb, just 3 years ago.

There are more women's coaches on 12 month salaries than men's! The salaries are based on conference averages. Is that right, I don't know??? When WIU has a good team, the men will definitely draw more fans than the women, and when they play on the road at UCLA, I am sure they are given more than the women would get in the same situation. Of course all of that money goes into the central kitty to benefit everyone.

Publicity! Instead of counting the number of times "Westerwinds" is mentioned, why not count the number of times "women's" is mentioned. The press guides for the women's teams are just as nice as the men's too!

You know, there were alot of women that marched as "suffragettes" many years ago in order to win the right to vote. But that is a dead issue and I would venture to say that most ladies that thought it was important have also passed away. When I asked my wife about the it, she had to think and then said, "women's right to vote!" "Westerwind" as a name for the women's teams at one point was deemed necessary but the reasons for that have since faded with the years.

Finally, 712, a while back when Windswim mentioned compliance and equity issues you immediately began to once again complain about the athletic department's leadership!!! Did you look at the compliance section? Kathy Orban happens to be the assistant athletic director in charge of this area. She lettered in 3 sports at EIU and having met her, is very smart and not one to sweep compliance issues under the rug.

I said earlier that I was no longer going to comment but I have been impressed with the comments of Musaw17 and thought I would pipe in just one more time!

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

musaw17 — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:20:21 GMT

So is it the atheltics department or the wiu adminstration to blame. You kind of changed your story there. Also i would agree that if the university wanted to drop the mens name that would be fine as well. the university has to do what is best for the university sex aside. The past does not matter they had there time and the tradition of womens athleitcs does not change if the name does. If the name change brings in more money to better fund everybody then it is worht giving up.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:56:59 GMT

musaw17-

I have tried to enlighten this board as to some of the reasons why WIU is being investigated by posting about the EADA and other information. I don't work for the OCR, therefore I don't know all the reasons for the investigation. I do know it has to do with how well or badly WIU's been following Title IX.

The name Westerwinds isn't only about women athletes of the past. If the present and future is all that matters, as you imply, than it shouldn't matter if Leathernecks is dropped. But the past does matter, for both names. Both names have a proud history, and both should be allowed to continue as is.

I know Dr. Smiley was the head of the combined Athletic Dept., but even she had to follow the constraints put upon her by WIU's Admin. when it came to budget. Dropping the Westerwinds logo was in response to that budget crunch.

Contrary to what some fans may believe, athletic departments don't run schools, and Smiley had to do what was best for the total athletic program given her constraints. Unfortunately, part of the solution was at the expense of women athletes.

Western athletics includes women athletes. If "doing what's best for western athletics" means not treating women athletes fairly, then the dept. isn't doing what's best for all of athletics, but for only some of athletics.

Your "solution" for an athlete who feels she isn't being treated fairly is to transfer. So you're implying they should "shut up, put up, or leave". That's not much of a solution, unless you're a dept. who doesn't want athletes who don't like the status quo.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

musaw17 — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:18:29 GMT

Windsswim If your point for this argument is that the public doesn't know then why do you not enlighten the public as to what you are talking about. If your argument is that the name westerwinds is special to the athletes of the past then it will still be even if the name is changed for CURRENT and FUTURE athletes. The name change is supposed to help market women athletics therefore bring in more money for the business that college athletic are. I repeat college athletics is a business and therefore emotion has no part in this argument. As far as athletics of the 90's the department was run by a women Dr. Helen Smiley. I understand that there are allegely title 9 issues I am sure they exist at every institution but Westenr athletics needs to do what is best for western athletics. If athletes don't like it they can always transfer or drop there scholarship. There is always someone else to take it.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:54:30 GMT

This is not a black and white issue. This isn't about what other entities at WIU are called. It's about a group of people being treated fairly and equally under the law.

There are many facets to both the investigation and name change, too many to mention. Suffice it to say, WIU has not had the best interests of women athletes in mind for many years. It goes beyond what can be seen by the public (i.e. facilities).

Same with the name. It goes beyond what the public sees (i.e. marching band). Try talking to any women athlete that was at WIU in the late '70's and '80's. They can tell you what being a Westerwind is and what it means to them. They understand what it means to be discriminated against by the dept.

Ask a woman athlete from the '90's (when the depts. were combined and the 'Winds logo dropped) to now, and they have virtually no concept as to the meaning of the name and the history behind it. That's the fault of the dept., who's done their best to eliminate Westerwinds from the athletes', students' and public's consciousness, and they've done a pretty good job of it.

The women also don't realize 1) there's discrimination still going on and 2) there was a legal means to fight it. I know-I've been told by women athletes who were surprised when they found out a complaint had been filed on their behalf. The dept. has made sure the women have been kept ignorant when it comes to this matter.

That's why the OCR has decided to investigate. From a legal standpoint, WIU has neglected the rights of women athletes. They're the ones who are most affected by all of this.

Unless you've been part of the Westerwinds and on the receiving end of the discrimination, it's difficult to fully understand what this investigation and name change means for now and the future of Westerwinds athletics.

I just hope whatever I've posted here has opened your eyes to the total picture, not just what you've seen and know.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

WIU712 — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:49:30 GMT

Very well stated, musaw17!

The team name does belong to the University.

And The Marching Leathernecks consist of both male and female members. I think that the Band has given us the solution. WESTERN students are "Leathernecks".

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

musaw17 — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:20:37 GMT

I have been reading this post and believe that emotions are running a little high and clouding judgment of some parties. I am all for the name change of the women’s sports teams to leathernecks. The fact western pays athletes scholarships to play for WESTERN. Whether you are leathernecks or westernwinds you play for western. The name does not belong to the athletes on either side it belongs to the university. If the university feels it is in the best interest of women’s sports to change their name to make it more marketable then that is their job and right. Trying to make the brand of women’s sports at Western more marketable is only meant to improve attendance at all sports and help bring in more funding.

I also believe the athletic department has the best interest of the women athletes in mind. They have received countless facility upgrades and new playing surfaces or stadiums as the men. Look at the new softball stadium and locker rooms etc.

Furthermore the accomplishments of past WESTERN women athletes will not be tarnished what they have accomplished under whatever name is recorded and there for anyone to see. The name Westerwinds will always be a part of Western athletics history.

My last point is that there is already a group on campus where women are called leathernecks. There has never been a complaint or a thought that it should be different. That group is Westerns very own Marching Leathernecks, the 150 piece marching band that is comprised of ~45% women

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:50:37 GMT

As for the question "What is a Westerwind?"

Maybe if the Athletic Dept. promoted and marketed the name and everything associated with it like they should've been doing all these years, people would know. (And maybe make those wanting to drop the name not so eager to do it.)

But instead of doing that, the Athletic Dept. has done it's best to kill the logo and now try to drop the name. Instead of celebrating the 30th anniversary of the name, they're making people wonder why women have this unique and special honor in the first place.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 15:07:43 GMT

Some have suggested that the former and current women athletes should be polled to find out what they want. I'm all for that.

But that was supposed to happen with the original proposal survey. In fact, that didn't happen at all.

I know that many former Westerwinds were contacted by other former 'Winds when the proposal first came out asking them to write Goldfarb in support of the Westerwinds name. In all but a couple instances, these women didn't know anything about the proposal. They had never received the email with the survey.

These women were found by the others using WIU's STARS system. The former 'Winds found them, but the university couldn't? With their own system? Why?

It's interesting that many in the group probably most knowledgable about the Westerwinds history, connected to the name, and affected by the proposal were the very group not contacted by WIU.

I'm not ready to say "conspiracy", but it does make you wonder how that happened...

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:54:38 GMT

[quote]western-101 (6/28/2008)

Ray ROCK Hanson was an honored marine in our United States Marine corps. WIU got special permision from the United States Department of the Navy to use their Seal. We are the only school in the United States to have that honor.

Whatever lets call the girls the winds, or partly sunny with a chance of showers.[/quote]

The men have a special honor with a unique name. The women were given that same opportunity years ago and should be allowed to keep it. The school should be proud that they allowed both men and women the same honor.

If the name-dropping tables were turned, would all of you feel the same? What if the men were the ones forced to drop their logo and change their name? How would you feel then? Wouldn't you fight to keep your name, history, traditions, and accomplishments?

So why do you want to force the women to give up that?

BTW, it's WOMEN, not girls. That's part of the problem right there. Until the women are called, seen, and treated as equals, not as inferior "girls", many who want the name change won't understand what it means for the women to have their own name and identity.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 14:42:10 GMT

Don't be so quick to blame Title IX for the cuts in men's sports. Title IX was never meant to do that. The AD's have used it to justify cutting men's minor sports to afford funding of the men's major sports (football, basketball) that have become out of control.

Think about these things for a moment:

Almost all AD's are men. If they were almost all women and cutting men's sports to help fund women, then you would have an argument that there was bias in the cuts.

AD's have the power to decide how Title IX is implemented and how funding is appropriated, and they chose to funnel more money into football and men's basketball, and chose to cut men's minor sports.

Football doesn't need as many players on scholarship as they do. Let them have as many walkons as they want, or maybe limit the team size to 90-100. But cut 10-15 scholarships and/or limit the total number of players, and men's minor sports could be funded with the money saved from less scholarships and equipment.

But the AD's don't want to do that. They don't want to face the football coach (and also the alumni, boosters, fans, media, etc.) and tell him he's going to have less scholarships. It's easier to face the wrestling, swimming, gymnastics, etc. coach and tell him that sport is being cut because of Title IX.

While it's true men's minor sports have been cut, the total number of men's teams has grown. When Title IX was implemented, some thought it would be the death of football. But football has now grown by leaps and bounds over the last 30+ years.

There is enough money to fund all sports IF the AD's wanted to. But as long as football and men's basketball are allowed to continue to grow unchecked and use up more funding, women and men's minor sports will suffer.

Check out the EADA for Stanford. They've been able to comply with Title IX, have many sports for men and women, and not cut men's sports. It can be done.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

WIU712 — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:03:36 GMT

Perhaps WESTERN's approach to go with a "separate but equal" name of Westerwinds back in the 70's was a mistake.

Most universities did not go with a completely different name for their women's programs.

I found it interesting that the start to phase out the Westerwinds logo began back in the 90's when Dr Helen Smiley was the Athletic Director.

Perhaps we could get Dr Smiley's opinion as to why the decision was made to do that.

WESTERN needs to have one team name.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

Neckfansince71 — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:27:09 GMT

101, 712, well said!

Enough said!

jc

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

BRGJOE — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:10:03 GMT

Well personally I'd go with whatever Zane Teilane says. If she wants the Westerwinds name to stay, it's fine w/ me.

Just some 2 cents worth on a couple of things:

1. I also think Title IX has been a good thing. Look at where women's sports in general was before it and compare to what the state of women's sports are now. Actually, there is no comparison. It's a quantum leap forward.

2. However, I will say that I think there could be some modifications to it. As the previous poster said, I think some small changes could be made that could benefit both the men's and women's programs. Right now I think it is difficult for a school the size of Western's to have a strong football program and still fulfill all of it's Title IX regulations. That said, Western should still do all it can to keep with the guidelines of the existing Title IX statues.

3. I admit not to knowing the in's and out's and the exact #'s of funding with regards to WIU's men's and women's programs. But just looking at facilities, I don't see a huge disparity. Brophy Hall (and it is newer) is arguably just as nice (if not nicer) as Western Hall. The women have a nice softball diamond now. Their teams are even more competitive in a lot of cases in their division(s) as the men are. As I said -- I don't know the actual breakdowns of the funding. But I would love to see it compared with other schools in our league(s).

4. I have been a neutralist on the Westerwinds name change thing. My thought has always been that if we were NOW going to change to the Westerwinds name, then I wouldn't be for it. But since they've had, what, 30+ years of history with it now, I'd say let them go ahead and keep their name. Or at the very least, ask those most directly affected (those current players/coaches/alumni) who play/played under the Westerwinds name. If they agree to drop the name, then it's cool with me too.

That's just my most humble opinion on it.

Joe C.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

western-101 — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 03:27:45 GMT

I'm inclined to agree with you 712 Our Men are Leathernecks and we are the Westerwinds as women we are in the Missouri Valley Football Conference and we are in the Summit League.

Sounds like a school that is not in agreement with what they want to do.

How 'bout Arkansas they are the "Hogs" and in the SEC.

The ladies at Arkansas don't seem offended to be reffered to as a hog.

I know a Leatherneck is a term for a Marine which is about as tough as they come.

What is a Westerwind?

In my opinion not affording a girl the flattering term of Leatherneck speaks of "sally should be a teacher or a nurse". In a way in my opinion the Westerwinds name is insulting to the ladies.

You arn't good enough to be an elite in the millitary we will put you in the typing room and you can not have the same name as the others.

Ray ROCK Hanson was an honored marine in our United States Marine corps. WIU got special permision from the United States Department of the Navy to use their Seal. We are the only school in the United States to have that honor.

Whatever lets call the girls the winds, or partly sunny with a chance of showers.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

WIU712 — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 00:06:59 GMT

It's time to unify the names.

After all, the University of Delaware is known as the "Blue Hens". Their men's teams are NOT called the "Blue Roosters".

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

Neckfansince71 — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:53:30 GMT

I found a paper on the effects of Title 9 on athletic programs and scholarships in general. Explains the law clearly and I think he is right on!

http://www.athleticscholarships.net/title-ix-college-athletics.htm

Here is his conclusion!

research paper by Michael Lancaster

CONCLUSION
Since Title IX’s inception in 1972 there is no question that the legislation has considerably advanced women's intercollegiate athletics. Title IX of the education amendment of 1972 was designed and established as an anti-discrimination measure guaranteeing that no one would be excluded from federally assisted programs and activities regardless of gender.

As Title IX passes through its 33rd year of existence it is important to examine the other side of the equal opportunity argument that the legislation is supposed to promote. During this time frame in which strides have been made in women’s athletics, men’s athletic programs have generally suffered. More than 400 men’s athletic teams have been eliminated as a result of Universities needing to become NCAA compliant. The sports worst hit have been low revenue Olympic sports such as wrestling, swimming and track and field. This is a disturbing trend that was never intended when Title IX was introduced.

Clearly this is grossly unfair to males as more males are interested in competing in collegiate sports than women. The law would be much fairer if it took into account that the ratio of men and women who wish to participate in collegiate sports at the intercollegiate level, rather than the whole undergraduate student body which is now made up of 54% female students. When Title IX was first introduced women were the underrepresented sex in the classroom.

Thirty three years have passed since Title IX’s inception and society has changed drastically since then. As society changes, laws should change as well. They should evolve over the years and be most fair and relevant at all times. Title IX laws in regards to intercollegiate athletics needs to evolve. The law has achieved what it set out to do and is now only hurting the opportunities for male athletes.

It is my belief that the regulations binding NCAA athletic programs in regards to Title IX restrictions should be modified. It is very clear that any program with a football team struggles to meet Title IX compliancy. An NCAA football program must have at minimum of 65 full athletic scholarships and no women’s sport comes close to that number. Because of this, no team, men’s or women’s, should not have to suffer. The highest number of athletic scholarships that can be offered for a women’s team is 18 for women’s crew. This is not comparable to a men’s football program that has to offer more than three times the amount of athletic scholarships.

It would be more reasonable if Universities with a football program did not have to comply with Title IX laws in the same manner that Universities without a football program do. The law should be changed to limit football programs overbearing influence within Title IX restrictions. Either take football programs out of the equation, or have every third athlete count as one athlete on a football team. In this situation everyone is happy. Women’s programs will continue to grow, and the lower revenue sports such as wrestling and swimming will not have to be cut as a result of the University having a football team.

Title 9 is all about participation! It does not have anything to do with amount of dollars for coaching or recruiting. Its all about equaling the chance to participate. Basically the football numbers (63) get in the way of true equality. # of scholarships at WIU men 129 women 97. Number of sports dead even. But the women do not have a sport that has a number as large as 63 for FCS or 81 for FBS.

I don't buy the chance to stand alone as athletes. I also don't buy the comments about ladies with leathercollars. We are all graduates of one institution, not a female and male school. Its no longer about seperation, its about working together. You want another 32 scholarships??????? Well lets get rid of mens track and field/cross country, and maybe golf, and baseball, and it still won't do it because of the 63 for football. So shall we get rid of football?????????? You do not have to pay equal salaries!!! Just provide equal facilities and uniforms. Enough!!! Oh, by the way, lets throw out all of the female violin players in the orchestra so that we can get to the percentage of males and females at WIU. We have too many female violinists, and not enough males!!!! Of course who knows where we will find more male violinists???? But lets throw them out anyway so that we can have participation at the level of % enrollment!!!!!!!

I have had enough of this topic. There are two women in my house that want to be Leathernecks! Make sure there votes get counted too!

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 14:00:52 GMT

Very interesting and fair proposal. Definitely better than what was done by WIU in the first place.

From what I've heard, the Athletic Dept. was more than a little surprised when Goldfarb put the proposal up for a survey. The dept. (read VanAlstine) was expecting for him to just rubber stamp the proposal to drop Westerwinds and allow VA and Co. to finally get rid of what they consider a "nuisance"-these women and their name.

I've talked to many former Westerwinds, including Zane Teilane and Dr. Dot Richardson. They're very proud to be Westerwinds. They understand how unique and special it is for women to be allowed to stand on their own and have their own name, history, and voice.

If only the current women were allowed to feel that way. But it seems the dept. has made sure that isn't happening. It's encouraging to see the women's soccer team, headed by Bess Rapp, help bring the pride back to being a Westerwind by their efforts to promote the name in defiance of the dept.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

western-101 — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:18:50 GMT

Very intelligent and well thought out post windsswim. It is apparent you are passionate about the Winds and their History.

I don't think the University should force the Leatherneck name on the women. However, there may be more women that like the name Leathernecks than Westerwinds.

We should approach this democratically by voting. The administration can mail out ballots to all of the Westerwind alum and also make ballots available to the current women athletes. This should settle it once an for all. If a majority of the women that were former athletes or are current athletes want Westerwinds keep it, if they want Lady Leathernecks change it to that.

I think this a fair way to go about it and we will keep the guys out of the voting process all together.

RE: The "Westerwinds" name change ???

windsswim — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:54:33 GMT

Yes, WIU had a logo for the Westerwinds. Two, in fact. It started as a double W, then changed to a double wave W later on.

The publicity aspect is a small part of the total investigation. This is minor, and can be resolved. However, the non-compliance by WIU of the 3 main components of Title IX-that's serious. No less serious than if they were in non-compliance in matters of race. Gender is no less important than race when it comes to equality. Women shouldn't receive less than they are entitled just because they are women, but that's what WIU's doing.

As for the Leathernecks name-there is a history for it, and it all has to do with the men's football team. Before 1977 when Westerwinds was voted on, there was no name used for the women. They didn't use Leathernecks because, at the time, women weren't that common in the Marines. So the school suggested (not the women's athletic dept. demanding), that the women vote on a name more appropriate for the women's teams.

I can't speak for every woman athlete, but I don't want to be known as a "Lady Leatherneck". Even as the proposal was being voted on, there already were crude comments made by WIU fans on various message boards about "leather and lace" and similar sexist remarks, as well as references to S & M. If that was coming from our own fans, I can only imagine what other teams' fans would come up with. If I had a daughter competing for WIU, I wouldn't want to hear her being heckled with sexist remarks from not only the other teams' fans, but our own.

If women athletes today are apathetic about the Westerwinds name, that's the fault of the athletic dept. They've made a concerted effort to kill the name for years. I've heard stories by women athletes that during their campus visits, they were never told the women were Westerwinds. Even general students aren't told this.

If the dept. promoted and marketed the Westerwinds name like they do Leathernecks, women athletes would have more pride in it, like those years ago when it was first used. Instead, women athletes have been mocked and made to feel like second-class citizens.

I've talked to professors on campus who have women and men athletes in classes. They've told me stories the women have related about the men saying "if you're not a Leatherneck, you're not a real athlete" and other derogatory remarks towards the name and them as athletes and individuals. Some women have said they learned to hate the name because of how they were treated by the dept. and male athletes.

If nothing else, this proposal has made everyone, especially women athletes, discover the proud history behind the Westerwinds name. These women who've been mocked realize now it's not the name they should despise, but those who have degraded it.

Male athletes have also realized that this whole proposal is sexist, and have spoken up in defense of the Westerwinds name. The school is forcing the women to drop their name, not the men's. Just as the school forced the women to drop their logo, not the men's.

The argument can be made the Leathernecks name has more history. Well, that's because before Title IX, there was no women's athletics. Don't penalize the women again because of inequality in the past.

Instead of forcing women to give up a part of their proud history, WIU should be promoting the fact they were at the forefront of equality for women by having a separate name for them. Instead of trying to get rid of the Westerwinds name, they should have been celebrating the 30th anniversary of the name last year.

And if WIU is allowed to continue non-compliance with Title IX, then what's to say they won't do more in the future if allowed to operate like this? Today-drop the women's name. Tomorrow-it could be women's teams and funding. They already provide less for the women than they should. If we're not careful, it could be even more held back from the women.